At risk of beating a dead horse, I’m going to miss these threads if this is the end of them! I mean, I’m not the moderator, but I hope this single incident doesn’t discourage from commentary in the future!

And just to add my own little bit of mind, I don’t think most of us can, without very extreme premeditation, and deliberate mediation during the course of the occurrence, celebrate/observe/recognize/participate-in other religious celebrations without getting caught up in them either in body, mind or spirit. You’re either very dull-witted and ignorant, or extremely strong-willed, to participate and not be caught up the celebration or rituals. I would argue you can’t celebrate without consciously succumbing to the ideals of the celebration. Even if you don’t admit it publicly, in your heart I would say you rationalize what and why you’re participating, and that doubt is the devils playground. What’s that warning about being unequally yoked?

Joel! When is your next controversial blog? We’re all biting at the bit!

-J

I am sorry I wasted my time with the rest of the stuff I said, because you seem to be only willing to talk about the things you can twist around to fit your already memorized arguments.

It is probably a good time to cut this conversation to an end. I hope you find a way to reshape the world through rational and relational Christianity, even when that Christianity doesn’t see eye to eye with you.

As for your comments on Hell, I didn’t need to respond because your point was repetitive. You asked how can a temporal action require an eternal punishment. That had already been explained three times prior, namely that because God holds the eternal standard of goodness, any evil act against Him is eternally bad. It is infinitely bad.

The Free Will argument was illogical, so it was ignored. It’s illogical because when applied to similar circumstances, it cancels itself out. For instance, if I choose to drink and drive and I end up paralyzed, does this mean my choice to drink and drive wasn’t made under free will? Of course not – my ability is limited because of the choice I made. The fact is, the choice was deadline at the point I attempted to drive and ended up paralyzed. Just because something is a libertine choice doesn’t mean it’s free of a deadline (otherwise free will doesn’t exist since, at the greatest possible point, we must make a choice on everything before we’re dead…but this is superfluous since all choices come with a deadline).

When you began to address my position on Hell, you began to go into a topic that I have done A LOT of research in. I have studied the Bibles position on Eternal Punishment for several years. This is a subject I know MUCH about. I brought up reasonable questions and examples of what the Bible says about Hell and NONE of them were addressed by you. You accused me of saying things that I was NOT saying when it comes to eternal Hell (nothing to do with Ramadan), so I spent much time replying to those accusations. You hadn’t even acknowledged my original Comment. I think that I deserve a reply, especially to the second half of my original comment. I am not ignorant in the subject of Eternal Hell, so I do think you should reply to that part of my comment.

Why should I waste my time with someone who admits to having not studying Islam, yet is so quickly to say, “One can celebrate Ramadan and simply ‘Christianize’ it” without knowing a single thing about Islamic culture or exactly what Ramadan entails? That is the definition of a useless debate and, to be quite honest, it seems you have an opinion, but not the knowledge to back that opinion up. If you had studied Islam, I’m sure this would go differently, but why should I waste my time when you admit ignorance of a subject, but still continue to debate it?

Did you have an “Emergent” or Muslim read through the post and comments? Those are the people you are mostly talking about in this post.

Hope you had a wonderful holiday season!

To try to spell out the point I was making by bringing up Christmas and Easter more clearly–perhaps, just maybe, Brian McLaren is “Christianizing” Ramadan by celebrating those elements found in the celebration of Ramadan that are embraced within the Christian faith at the same time that Ramadan is celebrated.

I am not, no matter how many times you say to the contrary that I am, trying to twist what you say. I DO NOT CARE whether or not Islam can support violence, et als, by its holy writings. I am NOT advocating a belief in Islam. I am NOT saying it is a way to God. I am saying the Muslims I know DO NOT promote or practice violence. Perhaps they are not considered very good Muslims. Still I think they comprise the majority.

I DO CARE that the first 300 years of Christianity were more closely lived in accordance with the Bible than the last 1700 years have been. In fact, it breaks my heart that we have twisted and distorted scripture to try and make it fit our greed, hunger for power, and self-centerness. I am dismayed that the vast majority of American Christians do not walk out their faith in their every day lives in a manner that is respresentitive of scripture but rather seem to think being a patriotic, American is the same thing as a God-fearing Christian. And quite frankly I am angered by the whole my-book-is-better-than-their-book-even-if-the-walking-out-of-my-life-doesn’t-show-it attitude so many fundamentalist Christians seem to have.

The only reason I brought up the idea of our ability to distort scripture is because people have done so through out history, all the while claiming they are only saying what the Bible says. I still see it today. People take passages out of context, ignore the cultural in which the scripture was written, and act as though scripture was originally written in modern English. I do not mean to besmirch your character by questioning your knowledge of the Qu’ran. I only mean to say that unless you have read it cover to cover, studied it in context, and know it from its original language you may need to be careful about presenting yourself as an expert on what it says/means.

I CARE about the practicing of my faith and the witness my life makes to those I might never actually talk to about the specifics of my faith. (Which is NOT saying I do not give an answer when I am asked). I CARE MOST about those portions of scripture that have been written to me as a follower of Christ, for my encouragement, instruction, and admonishment. I HOPE that both my walk and my talk will be seen by my Jesus as a true testament of His presence, His reconciliation, and His redemption in my life.

Perhaps I have not understood the points you were trying to make. Maybe how I recieved what you said in this post has so skewed your intent that my response came across at completely irrelevant. Whatever the case, it seems the water is so sufficiently muddied now that continuing the dialogue is fruitless. I do not enjoy feeling angry and frustrated because what I am saying is deemed off track or
not of value and I suspect you probably have a similar feeling. May the new year bring you new vision, Minnow.

You think that sense Brian is observing Ramadan he is going against the Bible and “mixing faiths”. I guess that depends on what we consider is “mixing faiths”. I think you mix faiths by adding things onto your faith. If I said, “I will praise my God and your god”, I would be mixing my faith. Brian made sure to say that he was only praising his God. Now, if I said to another Muslim friend, “I will be obedient to my God and participate with you in feeding the poor”, can you find fault in that? There is a HUGE difference. My Bible already tells me to help the poor and be kind to others, thus I am not adding anything onto my faith from the Muslims faith by participating with them in doing those things. Brian was NOT saying he was going to attribute helping the poor and being kind to others to the Muslim God. I think he was just showing that the faiths have some similarities and those sort of things can be celebrated on the same holiday.

I think it is incredibly important to show the places where Christianity and other religions are alike. By NO way am I saying to mix the religions. But, if other religions are showing qualities of God, why not point them out? You do not get to a unbeliever by saying, “you are completely wrong”. If you want to reach the “lost” you must show them the places God truly dwells. You do this by saying that their desire to help the poor, comes from Jesus Christ. You point to the places that Jesus is already moving in and draw that out.

You told Minnow that Christians were using the Christmas holiday, when it was originally used to praise a pagan God, to praise Jesus Christ. I really do not see a difference in what Brian is doing. He has NOT said that he was using Ramadan to praise the Muslim God. He specifically said he was using it to help his walk in Christ. Why are you willing to say that Christians used Christmas, “for an entirely different reason” and not say the same about Brian and Ramadan?

If you still think I have “nothing to add to the discussion” about Brian McLaren and Ramadan, then fine. We will need to agree to disagree. I have already admitted that you have researched the Qur’an and Hadith more then me. If you think those are the two things you need to know to have anything to say about the “Brian McLaren – Really?” blog then you have already “won” because I know very little. However, the second half of this Post was addressed to my position on Eternal Punishment and Hell. The second half of my original comment addressed that issue. You have ignored that half of my comment, and I would appreciate if you would reply to it?