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	<title>Comments on: Brian McLaren &#8211; Really?</title>
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	<description>Reshaping the world through rational and relational Christianity</description>
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		<title>By: cindyinsd</title>
		<link>http://thechristianwatershed.com/2009/08/19/brian-mclaren-really/#comment-282</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[cindyinsd]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Dec 2009 05:31:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thechristianwatershed.com/?p=408#comment-282</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[All I can say to most of your last reply, V, is &quot;Huh?&quot;

&lt;blockquote&gt;Of all those who profess to practice Christianity, less than one percent are true Christians.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Where did you get this, and who has qualified you to make that judgment? It&#039;s one thing to judge from a person&#039;s statements whether or not his theology is correct, but as to whether or not he is &lt;b&gt;in Christ&lt;/b&gt;, I think I&#039;ll leave that to Jesus to decide.

But as to the rest of your post, I can only say, &quot;Huh?&quot; Looks to me like you&#039;re making it up as you go--okay, from your heart and not from your head. Don&#039;t let your heart deceive you, though. Apparently you only accept those parts of scripture that your heart agrees with (and I&#039;m sure your heart isn&#039;t going to like this part), but you should be warned that:

&lt;blockquote&gt;&quot;The human heart is the most deceitful of all things, and desperately wicked. Who really knows how bad it is? (Jer 17:9)  &lt;/blockquote&gt;

Your heart is desperately confused (though you are beloved of the Lord), and yet you place yourself as an instructor of others (me). I used to think that the lyrics of some rock songs were too deep for me to understand. Now I understand--those lyrics never meant anything except, perhaps, to the musician--until he sobered up. I&#039;m sorry to hurt you, but your words are like their words. You are rambling all over the place, saying nothing.

In Love, Cindy]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>All I can say to most of your last reply, V, is &#8220;Huh?&#8221;</p>
<blockquote><p>Of all those who profess to practice Christianity, less than one percent are true Christians.</p></blockquote>
<p>Where did you get this, and who has qualified you to make that judgment? It&#8217;s one thing to judge from a person&#8217;s statements whether or not his theology is correct, but as to whether or not he is <b>in Christ</b>, I think I&#8217;ll leave that to Jesus to decide.</p>
<p>But as to the rest of your post, I can only say, &#8220;Huh?&#8221; Looks to me like you&#8217;re making it up as you go&#8211;okay, from your heart and not from your head. Don&#8217;t let your heart deceive you, though. Apparently you only accept those parts of scripture that your heart agrees with (and I&#8217;m sure your heart isn&#8217;t going to like this part), but you should be warned that:</p>
<blockquote><p>&#8220;The human heart is the most deceitful of all things, and desperately wicked. Who really knows how bad it is? (Jer 17:9)  </p></blockquote>
<p>Your heart is desperately confused (though you are beloved of the Lord), and yet you place yourself as an instructor of others (me). I used to think that the lyrics of some rock songs were too deep for me to understand. Now I understand&#8211;those lyrics never meant anything except, perhaps, to the musician&#8211;until he sobered up. I&#8217;m sorry to hurt you, but your words are like their words. You are rambling all over the place, saying nothing.</p>
<p>In Love, Cindy</p>
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		<title>By: Joel</title>
		<link>http://thechristianwatershed.com/2009/08/19/brian-mclaren-really/#comment-274</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Joel]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Dec 2009 21:43:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thechristianwatershed.com/?p=408#comment-274</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Start providing some evidence for your position, or your comments will be deleted. I have no problem accepting dissenting opinions so long as they have valid reason behind them. Yours don&#039;t. I&#039;ve quoted from the Qur&#039;an and the Hadith and turned to history. You&#039;ve done nothing except call me Xenophobic. I&#039;ve obviously read the Qur&#039;an and the Hadith. I&#039;ve read the Vedas. I&#039;ve read far more books that I disagree with than I agree with. So to say that I hold some kind of &quot;fear&quot; of foreign ideas is nothing short of an ad hominem tactic. Maybe I am afraid of Islam. Even if I am, that doesn&#039;t change the fact that I used FACTUAL EVIDENCE to prove my point. That is far more than I can say for you. 

Again, sorry to be so short with you, but this site is dedicated to intelligent discussions on certain issues. Part of this requirement is that you provide a justification for your claims and use evidence when taking an alternative view. If you can&#039;t adhere to that, then you aren&#039;t welcome to post here.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Start providing some evidence for your position, or your comments will be deleted. I have no problem accepting dissenting opinions so long as they have valid reason behind them. Yours don&#8217;t. I&#8217;ve quoted from the Qur&#8217;an and the Hadith and turned to history. You&#8217;ve done nothing except call me Xenophobic. I&#8217;ve obviously read the Qur&#8217;an and the Hadith. I&#8217;ve read the Vedas. I&#8217;ve read far more books that I disagree with than I agree with. So to say that I hold some kind of &#8220;fear&#8221; of foreign ideas is nothing short of an ad hominem tactic. Maybe I am afraid of Islam. Even if I am, that doesn&#8217;t change the fact that I used FACTUAL EVIDENCE to prove my point. That is far more than I can say for you. </p>
<p>Again, sorry to be so short with you, but this site is dedicated to intelligent discussions on certain issues. Part of this requirement is that you provide a justification for your claims and use evidence when taking an alternative view. If you can&#8217;t adhere to that, then you aren&#8217;t welcome to post here.</p>
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		<title>By: Joel</title>
		<link>http://thechristianwatershed.com/2009/08/19/brian-mclaren-really/#comment-273</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Joel]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Dec 2009 21:40:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thechristianwatershed.com/?p=408#comment-273</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[What does matter is plagiarism, and I won&#039;t let anyone have any part of that on my site. Site the source or the comment (and all further comments from you) will be deleted.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What does matter is plagiarism, and I won&#8217;t let anyone have any part of that on my site. Site the source or the comment (and all further comments from you) will be deleted.</p>
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		<title>By: Joel</title>
		<link>http://thechristianwatershed.com/2009/08/19/brian-mclaren-really/#comment-272</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Joel]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Dec 2009 21:36:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thechristianwatershed.com/?p=408#comment-272</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Such tactics don&#039;t work on this site. Either restate your point in a clear and concise manner or your comments won&#039;t be allowed. Savvy?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Such tactics don&#8217;t work on this site. Either restate your point in a clear and concise manner or your comments won&#8217;t be allowed. Savvy?</p>
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		<title>By: vajrakrishna</title>
		<link>http://thechristianwatershed.com/2009/08/19/brian-mclaren-really/#comment-271</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[vajrakrishna]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Dec 2009 21:27:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thechristianwatershed.com/?p=408#comment-271</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I am asking you to expand your horizon. And that is done by realising the Socratic perspective. Which is to continually go to the heart of the matter instead of skirting around the edges - skirting around the edges as you are fond of doing, is prejudicial and a sign of the fear of differences.

For example - Xenophobia in one sense is translated as the fear of foreigners, but it does have a deeper meaning - and you can find this in most dictionaries. It is the fear of something strange or foreign.

So, when you elect to research and study it - as you have done with Islam - you do it with a skewered perspective, biased and already concluded upon what you &quot;want it to mean&quot; to you.

Instead of looking at what it means in and of itself.

I explored not only Islam, but every substantial religion, and even the secret esoteric ones - each time with an OPENNESS - a willingness to learn, to understand.

I was seeking wisdom, rather than to fill a room full of ammunition to prove to myself why Islam is just &quot;so wrong.&quot;

So, no, my friend, I am not the one who has a problem with being wrong.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am asking you to expand your horizon. And that is done by realising the Socratic perspective. Which is to continually go to the heart of the matter instead of skirting around the edges &#8211; skirting around the edges as you are fond of doing, is prejudicial and a sign of the fear of differences.</p>
<p>For example &#8211; Xenophobia in one sense is translated as the fear of foreigners, but it does have a deeper meaning &#8211; and you can find this in most dictionaries. It is the fear of something strange or foreign.</p>
<p>So, when you elect to research and study it &#8211; as you have done with Islam &#8211; you do it with a skewered perspective, biased and already concluded upon what you &#8220;want it to mean&#8221; to you.</p>
<p>Instead of looking at what it means in and of itself.</p>
<p>I explored not only Islam, but every substantial religion, and even the secret esoteric ones &#8211; each time with an OPENNESS &#8211; a willingness to learn, to understand.</p>
<p>I was seeking wisdom, rather than to fill a room full of ammunition to prove to myself why Islam is just &#8220;so wrong.&#8221;</p>
<p>So, no, my friend, I am not the one who has a problem with being wrong.</p>
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		<title>By: vajrakrishna</title>
		<link>http://thechristianwatershed.com/2009/08/19/brian-mclaren-really/#comment-269</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[vajrakrishna]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Dec 2009 21:07:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thechristianwatershed.com/?p=408#comment-269</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Of all those who profess to practice Christianity, less than one percent are true Christians.

The same goes to those who profess any religion.

And this is because practising a religion isn&#039;t about preaching it - it&#039;s about living it.

My point with Constantine isn&#039;t in the nature of the debate - there are two sides staunchly opposed on what actually happened, and there is also those sitting on the fence. 

Rather, it is going to the crux of what you said, people believe what they want to believe in order to convince themselves of anything at all...

If one is going to pit their lives on a book, then they must at least inquire as to make sure the book was not written by a madman, then staunchly followed by a community.

They must - in effect - DISCOVER for themselves.

“Anything is one of a million paths. Therefore you must always keep in mind that a path is only a path; if you feel you should not follow it, you must not stay with it under any conditions. To have such clarity you must lead a disciplined life. Only then will you know that any path is only a path, and there is not affront, to oneself or to others, in dropping it if that is what your heart tells you to do. But your decision to keep on the path or to leave it must be free of fear or ambition.

I warn you. Look at every path closely and deliberately. Try it as many times as you think necessary. Then ask yourself, and yourself alone, one question. This question is one that only a very old person asks. My benefactor told me about it once when I was young, and my blood was too vigorous for me to understand it. Now I do understand it.

I will tell you what it is: Does this path have a heart?

All paths are the same, they lead nowhere. They are paths going through the bush, or into the bush. In my own life I could say I have traversed long, long paths, but I am not anywhere. My benefactor’s question has meaning now. “Does this path have a heart?” One makes you strong; the other weakens you.

The trouble is nobody asks the question: and when a person finally realizes that they have taken a path without heart, the path is ready to kill them. At that point very few people stop to deliberate and leave the path.

A path without a heart is never enjoyable. You have to work hard even to take it. On the other hand, a path with heart is easy; it does not make you work at liking it.

For my part there is only the traveling on paths that have heart, on any path that may have heart. There I travel, and the only worthwhile challenge is to traverse its full length.

And there I travel looking, looking, breathlessly.”

- Doesn’t matter who said this. All that matters is what is being said.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Of all those who profess to practice Christianity, less than one percent are true Christians.</p>
<p>The same goes to those who profess any religion.</p>
<p>And this is because practising a religion isn&#8217;t about preaching it &#8211; it&#8217;s about living it.</p>
<p>My point with Constantine isn&#8217;t in the nature of the debate &#8211; there are two sides staunchly opposed on what actually happened, and there is also those sitting on the fence. </p>
<p>Rather, it is going to the crux of what you said, people believe what they want to believe in order to convince themselves of anything at all&#8230;</p>
<p>If one is going to pit their lives on a book, then they must at least inquire as to make sure the book was not written by a madman, then staunchly followed by a community.</p>
<p>They must &#8211; in effect &#8211; DISCOVER for themselves.</p>
<p>“Anything is one of a million paths. Therefore you must always keep in mind that a path is only a path; if you feel you should not follow it, you must not stay with it under any conditions. To have such clarity you must lead a disciplined life. Only then will you know that any path is only a path, and there is not affront, to oneself or to others, in dropping it if that is what your heart tells you to do. But your decision to keep on the path or to leave it must be free of fear or ambition.</p>
<p>I warn you. Look at every path closely and deliberately. Try it as many times as you think necessary. Then ask yourself, and yourself alone, one question. This question is one that only a very old person asks. My benefactor told me about it once when I was young, and my blood was too vigorous for me to understand it. Now I do understand it.</p>
<p>I will tell you what it is: Does this path have a heart?</p>
<p>All paths are the same, they lead nowhere. They are paths going through the bush, or into the bush. In my own life I could say I have traversed long, long paths, but I am not anywhere. My benefactor’s question has meaning now. “Does this path have a heart?” One makes you strong; the other weakens you.</p>
<p>The trouble is nobody asks the question: and when a person finally realizes that they have taken a path without heart, the path is ready to kill them. At that point very few people stop to deliberate and leave the path.</p>
<p>A path without a heart is never enjoyable. You have to work hard even to take it. On the other hand, a path with heart is easy; it does not make you work at liking it.</p>
<p>For my part there is only the traveling on paths that have heart, on any path that may have heart. There I travel, and the only worthwhile challenge is to traverse its full length.</p>
<p>And there I travel looking, looking, breathlessly.”</p>
<p>- Doesn’t matter who said this. All that matters is what is being said.</p>
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		<title>By: vajrakrishna</title>
		<link>http://thechristianwatershed.com/2009/08/19/brian-mclaren-really/#comment-268</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[vajrakrishna]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Dec 2009 21:01:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thechristianwatershed.com/?p=408#comment-268</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Read it again. The point is simple.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Read it again. The point is simple.</p>
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		<title>By: cindyinsd</title>
		<link>http://thechristianwatershed.com/2009/08/19/brian-mclaren-really/#comment-267</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[cindyinsd]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Dec 2009 17:02:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thechristianwatershed.com/?p=408#comment-267</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;d have to agree with Joel here. Constantine didn&#039;t do anything to the bible. He did bad things to the church, certainly. He did more damage with his patronage than anyone else had ever been able to do with persecution. However that&#039;s not the point of the discussion, is it?

Christianity is based on Christ as revealed in scripture and in the heart of His people. It was good and wise of God to give us a written word, even though He also desires to communicate with us daily. He knows how easily we can get off track without some kind of a road map. Otherwise, our revelations can become very self-serving as well as more and more, um, imaginative. We can just &quot;make it up as we go along.&quot; 

If you want to make it up as you go along, there&#039;s certainly a long and interesting tradition of people doing that and calling themselves Christians. Witness the Crusades, the liturgy, the burning of Christians by the Catholic church (and, unfortunately, some of the more well-known early Protestant fathers as well. None of this is condoned in the bible, but all has been done by people making up their own version of Christianity in accord with their own sincerely held world views.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;d have to agree with Joel here. Constantine didn&#8217;t do anything to the bible. He did bad things to the church, certainly. He did more damage with his patronage than anyone else had ever been able to do with persecution. However that&#8217;s not the point of the discussion, is it?</p>
<p>Christianity is based on Christ as revealed in scripture and in the heart of His people. It was good and wise of God to give us a written word, even though He also desires to communicate with us daily. He knows how easily we can get off track without some kind of a road map. Otherwise, our revelations can become very self-serving as well as more and more, um, imaginative. We can just &#8220;make it up as we go along.&#8221; </p>
<p>If you want to make it up as you go along, there&#8217;s certainly a long and interesting tradition of people doing that and calling themselves Christians. Witness the Crusades, the liturgy, the burning of Christians by the Catholic church (and, unfortunately, some of the more well-known early Protestant fathers as well. None of this is condoned in the bible, but all has been done by people making up their own version of Christianity in accord with their own sincerely held world views.</p>
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		<title>By: Joel</title>
		<link>http://thechristianwatershed.com/2009/08/19/brian-mclaren-really/#comment-266</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Joel]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Dec 2009 15:14:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thechristianwatershed.com/?p=408#comment-266</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[What was your point?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What was your point?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Joel</title>
		<link>http://thechristianwatershed.com/2009/08/19/brian-mclaren-really/#comment-265</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Joel]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Dec 2009 15:14:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thechristianwatershed.com/?p=408#comment-265</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[He didn&#039;t do anything to the Bible. If you want to use historical fact to back up any conspiracy theories concerning the structure of Scripture, then be my guest. But if this is going to be another trip down Dan Brown&#039;s fantasy land, I&#039;d beg of you to just drop it. :)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>He didn&#8217;t do anything to the Bible. If you want to use historical fact to back up any conspiracy theories concerning the structure of Scripture, then be my guest. But if this is going to be another trip down Dan Brown&#8217;s fantasy land, I&#8217;d beg of you to just drop it. <img src='http://s0.wp.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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